A discussion of Weaves

topic posted Thu, July 23, 2009 - 4:48 PM by  Chris
Share/Save/Bookmark
Advertisement
So there hasn't been much activity on this tribe (or most tribes) lately, so here's a rather lengthy post I wrote discussing the different types of weaves that are possible while spinning a meteor. Comments, questions, and corrections would be greatly appreciated.

=========================================================================================================

Breakdown of Weaves w/ Single Meteor

Ever since I started playing with a meteor I was confounded by the fact that I could do a fwd thumb led 2 beat weave (figure of 8) just fine but whenever I went to do a rev thumb led 2 beat it never felt right. In fact it felt more like a 2 beat off set weave with poi. So in error I figured that that was just the way meteor worked instead of exploring further. The other day while practicing my fwd 3 beat weave, I decided to start messing around with doing all of the weaves known to me pinky led in both fwd and reverse to find new variations. After a bit of playing I started doing a pinky led 2 beat in reverse and "Voila!" a breakthrough was made. The equivalent in rev of the fwd thumb led 2 beat is a pinky led 2 beat. All along I never made the leap that when you switch direction you also need to change from either thumb to pinky led or vice versa. This new information/revelation was the key to allow me to map out all of the variations of weaves that are possible with a single meteor. It turned out that for either direction be it forward or reverse there is only one weave of equal degrees of twist for a given beat count (i.e. a 3 beat weave). Then on top of these basic equally twisted weaves, there are loads of offset weave variations to be explored as well. Here's a run through of these weave combinations starting with the equal weaves and moving on to offsets.

*Note: When I am counting the beats of these weaves I am counting from the top of the circles for one end of the meteor on both sides then adding the two sides together.

Equally Twisted Weaves

The Most Basic of Weaves

Fwd 2 beat Thumb led
Rev 2 beat Pinky led

I determined that these two weaves are the simplest weave pattern possible with a meteor. If you do a fwd pinky led two beat or a rev thumb led two beat they end up being offset and therefore lack the symmetry of the two weaves written above. In fact each direction has two basic 2 beat offset weaves which become an equally twisted 4 beat weave when combined, but let's not get ahead of ourselves. Since these offset 2 beats are not equal in degrees of twist from one side to the other the only true 2 beat weaves with a meteor are the pair mentioned above.

The 3 beat Weave

Fwd 3 beat pinky thumb switch
Rev 3 beat thumb pinky switch

For either direction the side of the hand listed first determines which hand is crossing over to the opposite side of the body. So by the name "fwd 3 beat pinky thumb switch" I am saying that while spinning fwd with your right hand your pinky side will be crossing over to the left side (opposite) side of the body and then you will switch so the thumb led side will lead back over to the right side. By adding this switch between thumb side and pinky side you add an extra beat making this a 3 beat weave.

The 4 beat Weave

Fwd 4 beat pinky led
Rev 4 beat thumb led

There is only one equal 4 beat weave for a given direction. This is also where my old confusion came from as I thought that the rev 4 beat thumb led was the simplest equally twisted version of a rev weave. As mentioned earlier combining the two basic 2 beat offset weaves for a given direction makes a 4 beat.

The 5 Beat Weave

Fwd 5 beat thumb pinky switch (starts with a 3 beat pinky thumb switch)
Rev 5 beat pinky thumb switch (starts with a 3 beat thumb pinky switch)

Now it is possible to do 5 beat weaves with a meteor by adding a wrist twist or wrist wrap onto either side of your 3 beat weave. To do a fwd 5 beat start with a fwd 3 beat pinky thumb switched weave and add an extra twist of the wrist or a wrist wrap forcing the thumb to now lead over to the opposite side of the body and the pinky to lead back. By adding a twist on either side you now have a 5 beat weave.

6 , 7, and beyond Beat Weaves

Fwd 6 beat thumb led
Rev 6 beat pinky led

The 6 beat and the other higher beat weaves start getting into iffy territory for me. To do an equally twisted 6 beat you must do a wrist wrap on both sides of your body which makes me feel that maybe you are not truly weaving anymore. I know there is a semi wrist wrap in the 5 beat but it becomes much more pronounced in the 6 beat as one end of the meteor is wrapped fully around your wrist. Still this can come in handy and is easily broken down into multiple different offset weaves. The seven beat weave is made by adding a thumb pinky switch onto a 6 beat offset weave. You can also make higher beat weaves by adding more and more wrists wraps to a given side but remember the more you wrap up the more uneven the ends of the meteor become.

Offset Weaves

Now unlike the equal weaves all of the offset weaves have an unequal amount of twist when comparing one side of the body to the other. Pretty much if you take any of the equal weaves above and split them into smaller pieces you'll have an offset weave.

2 beat offsets

The offset 2 beats are quite numerous. As mentioned in the beginning the four basic 2 beat offsets are:

fwd 2 beat pinky led same side
fwd 2 beat pinky led opp side
rev 2 beat thumb led same side
rev 2 beat thumb led opp side

These are derived from the 2 equal 4 beat weaves. So by same side and opp side in the above descriptions I am referring to which segment of the corresponding 4 beat the 2 beat is derived from. For example the fwd 2 beat pinky led same side refers to the 2 beat that is made from the crossover from the same side of your body to the opposite side during a 4 beat. Also, if you break apart a fwd 3 beat weave you'll get a thumb led 2 beat and an offset same side pinky led 2 beat. To derive the other offset two beat from a 3 beat you need to do an offset three beat.

There are other 2 beat offsets but instead of mentioning them all try breaking the equal weaves apart at various points to create your own offset two beats. (There are some really fun 2 beat offsets that can be made from the 5 beat weave.)

3 beat Offsets

One way to derive the 3 beat offset weaves is to break apart the 5 beat weave while another is to add either a thumb pinky or a pinky thumb switch (depending on the direction and side of the body) to an offset 2 beat derived from a 5 beat.

Say you have a fwd 5 beat weave being spun in your right hand. When you add a wrist twist onto the opposite (left) side of the body and cross back to the same side (right) immediately do a thumb switch instead of unwinding and cross back over to the left untwist and re-twist then cross back over. If you count the beats on either side of this you will have a 3 beat weave except it will be offset because there is more twist on the opposite side of the body. You can make another off set by doing the same thing except working with the twist starting on the same side of the body though this offset 3 beat is much harder.

Other Offset Weaves and Why you should discover them

There are many other offset weaves besides the ones I've mentioned. Even though you can have the same amount of beats by doing the easier equal weaves you still want to learn all the offset weaves as well. There are some interesting properties that arise when turning the offsets and mixing and matching pieces of offset and normal weaves which will help build your overall control of the meteor. Now I also feel that as isolations, flowers, hybrids, cateyes and other plays on driving styles are investigated deeper with meteor these transitions between offsets and regular weaves will lead to interesting possibilities for manipulation and in some cases will be the only way to execute certain combinations. Even by just turning different kinds of weaves you get some cool effects.

In-swings, Polyrhythm, one beats and more

As a side note it is possible to do polyrhythmic weaves with a meteor as well as incorporating in-swings (I know opp led ones work) into your flow. I have not played with these all too much but here's what I have worked with. To do polyrhythm in a weave try doing two swings of the thumb led side of the meteor on the opposite side of your body when doing a fwd 2 beat thumb led 2 beat. In the time it takes the pinky side to swing around you can have completed two rotations and then lead back to the same side of your body with the thumb side. This can be done in all sorts of weave configurations so please experiment and report back. With in-swings you'll either need to us a shorter meteor or you can do a meteor shortening combo to make your longer meteor more manageable. As of a few moments ago I found a few different in-swing combos and some very interesting possibilities. I didn't discuss one beats earlier on in this paper because you do not weave them but I feel that they are very important (though hard to master) to add to your flow. I am not sure at the moment but I think that throwing in a one beat can be similar to doing a same led in-swing and at the least can add some interesting variety to your weaves.

In conclusion, I hope that this article will be useful to all the meteor people out there and will cause some new questions to be asked, boundaries to be pushed and open up new territory to be explored. Meteor play is such a fun skill to learn and though it takes some getting used to and is not as easily picked up as say poi or staff I do hope more people will begin to discover the joys of working with this wonderful prop.
posted by:
Chris
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • Re: A discussion of Weaves

    Fri, July 24, 2009 - 12:25 PM
    word! Im printing this off to take with me and absorb while Im on vacation in Asheville. After I get some practice in I'll come back with some ideas.

    I gotta say that so far, Im having trouble with believing that an equally twisted 2beat can't be done in either direction with both thumb and/or pinky. I'll have to review your definitions for offset more closely. Right now Im not in a place where I can break out the meteor safely and comfortably.
    • Re: A discussion of Weaves

      Fri, July 24, 2009 - 12:50 PM
      "I gotta say that so far, Im having trouble with believing that an equally twisted 2beat can't be done in either direction with both thumb and/or pinky."

      Once you get a chance to play I think you'll see what I mean. Though it is not a full degree of twist the two pinky led fwd two beats and the two thumb led rev 2 beats definitely are slightly different then what I dub the most basic two beats. Take the pinky led fwd two beat that is crossing from the same side of the body to the opposite. If you compare that to a 2 beat offset weave with poi (a 2 beat weave done with a 5 beat wrist twist) you'll see that the two poi and the meteor act in the same way. I was surprised as sh*t that there is only one equally twisted weave for each beat count all the way up, but after experimenting for hours I can't come to any other conclusion.

      Have fun in Asheville and if you haven't already found spinners to chill with there, I was recently in Asheville and met a bunch of people in the community and would be more then happy to hook you up with some of them. I can't wait to hear your thoughts when you return!
      • Re: A discussion of Weaves

        Fri, July 24, 2009 - 1:12 PM
        That could be cool. I haven't gotten around to asking about any weekly gatherings or burns, but I know the only toys Im taking are my fire poi and my daytime meteors. Im looking forward to a nice relaxing break and lots of practice time, in between the hikes and stuff we're planning.
  • Re: A discussion of Weaves

    Mon, August 3, 2009 - 6:37 PM
    ok, offsets! Reading your article, I was envisioning the "twist" being of the meteor's leash. But after having played with it all week, I can see how the twist is happening in my wrists instead. For a forward pinky led 2bt, I have to twist my wrist around to get my thumb side to go on the same side of my body one extra time and let the pinky lead for the crossover.

    It has made understanding the 3bt weave better (though I still gotta practice).
    • Re: A discussion of Weaves

      Tue, August 4, 2009 - 5:24 AM
      Awesome! I guess I should have been more clear where the twist was happening in regards to the pinky led two beat. It is all in the wrist.

      Ya know using the pinky side of my hand is really doing a number on my arms, have you (or any other meteor people for that matter!) experienced any soreness from attempting loads of pinky led stuff, like 3 beats? I've been drilling the rev pinky led 2 beat and the transitions from fwd thumb led 2 beat into the rev pinky led 2 beat and I am getting all sorts of kinks in what I think are my triceps. It's the muscle on the other side of my arm compared to my biceps but man oh man whatever group of muscles I'm using are definitely not commonly used with poi spinning!
      • Re: A discussion of Weaves

        Tue, August 4, 2009 - 3:06 PM
        no I havent. Doesn't sound like much fun though. How far are you twisting your arm before you engage your torso? Maybe you just need to turn more at the hips, while your arm rests up.
        • Re: A discussion of Weaves

          Wed, August 5, 2009 - 6:44 AM
          Thanks, I'll give that a try.

          I think the problem is coming from forcing the switch from thumb led fwd to pinky led rev. Doing a fwd three beat and switching is quite natural but the rev pinky led stuff is a bit foreign to me still so hopefully when that becomes second nature I won't tense so darn much.
      • Re: A discussion of Weaves

        Tue, October 20, 2009 - 9:18 PM
        Yes, absolutely. You need to use muscles you would never ordinarily use.
        • Re: A discussion of Weaves

          Tue, October 20, 2009 - 9:24 PM
          OK, that post didn't quite work land where I had intended it to go.

          What I meant to say was that doing pinky-led weaves hurt my arm to for some time. Particularly my left arm, which I really had to practice with in order to feel comfortable.
          • Re: A discussion of Weaves

            Wed, October 21, 2009 - 8:42 AM
            Welcome to Tribe Mark, tho to let you know it's normally quite dead around this group. Tho there are still a few of us that check in every now and then.

            Yeah getting used to using the pinky side of your hand is a bit tiring at first for sure but like you said Mark it does go away after a while and I think you'll agree the benefits are immense. The freedom of movement that opens up by being able to do all the regular and offset weaves is awesome. Oddly enough learning pinky side meteor weaves has even helped me learn rev weaves with mini hoops as they are done pinky led as well.

            Besides switching between thumb and pinky led do also play with other ways to add beats to your weaves such as wrist wraps or doing a tangle outside the hand on one side and then untangling on the other?
            • Re: A discussion of Weaves

              Wed, October 21, 2009 - 4:20 PM
              Well I'm not usually that into wrist wraps with meteors. I find it a little clunky. I do really like doing tangles outside the hand that unwind on the other side. I don't do this often enough when playing, but I think it looks great and is quite smooth.

              The thing I usually do to ad revolutions (or beats) is to let the meteor spin on my finger. I've seen vids of people doing this above their head on a horisontal axis, but it's also pretty easy to do on a vertical axis too. And once you find the right point you can let the meteor spin indefinitely on your finger. It means you don't have to constantly move the meteor from one side of your body to the other.

              BTW Chris, I'm glad to hear from you. I've never really been involved with spinning online, but recently checked out YouTube and found a few black and white vids someone had uploaded of you spinning. Wicked! Also loved your introduction to weaves, and knotty was v cute. I have a few weeks off work soon, so will try to make and upload some vids then.
              • Re: A discussion of Weaves

                Fri, October 23, 2009 - 6:30 AM
                I hear ya on the wrist wrap thing. I find I only do them when spinning off center and doing compound circles these days. Well or whenever I screw up and need to recover then the wrist wrap comes in handy for sure. :p

                So about the finger spin thing, would that be akin to doing a one handed rotor? I can keep the meteor spinning indefinitely around my hand in the vertical plane like you would do while spinning a staff in front wallplane one handed but using just my finger escapes me thus far. Do you think finger spins in the horizontal would work better then using your whole hand because in the horizontal I have trouble keeping the rotation up when trying to use my hand in the same way I would in the vertical plane.

                Thanks dude, and you should most assuredly post some vids. If there's one thing that helps push any of the spinning arts forward more then anything else it's the free sharing of ideas across the web and that unfortunately has slowed down in the past couple of years.
                • Re: A discussion of Weaves

                  Sat, October 24, 2009 - 5:22 PM
                  Chris-

                  Thanks for keeping things moving, sharing with everyone... there are still a few people lurking around taking notes. I'm not getting enough practice time in, but meteor (double?) is definitely the next prop for me to crack...
                • Re: A discussion of Weaves

                  Sun, October 25, 2009 - 9:30 PM
                  Yep, the finger spin is precicely a one-handed rotor.

                  You could use the finger spin on a horisontal plane, and it may be better than using your hand. But I reckon the best way to generate momentum with one hand on the horisontal plane is with the traditional chinese wrist method.

                  BTW, if the wrist method isn't working very well you could be using the wrong hand. I tried and failed to get this to work for ages with my right hand. Then switched to my left and vuala! That's because I usually spin with the weights coming forwards past my right ear. When I reverse the spin, my right hand is the go.

                  I shot a vid yesterday to demonstrate the vertical finger spin. Will put it on the Tube as soon as I get the chance. Hopefully tonight - Sydney time.

                  =o)
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: A discussion of Weaves

                    Mon, October 26, 2009 - 4:58 PM
                    Traditional Chinese wrist method you say? I have no idea what that is and really don't know that many actual meteor terms. Mostly I just borrow terminology from the other spinning arts so if you could elaborate on how this Chinese wrist method that you speak of works it would be greatly appreciated. : )
                    • Re: A discussion of Weaves

                      Mon, October 26, 2009 - 8:10 PM
                      Hard to describe. You kind of just push the meteor around, slightly off-centre, with your hand, and then let it slip down your wrist for half a revolution and then push it around with your hand again.

                      It's the one that Fenfire demonstrates at about 28 seconds in his vid. And it's the one all the chinese circus performers (in cirque de solei etc) use throughout their routines.

                      But, mate, I have no idea about terminology either. I'm just making it up as I go. Talking about meteor is like dancing about architecture...

Recent topics in "Fire Meteor"