How thick is your rope?

topic posted Wed, November 12, 2008 - 9:37 AM by  squid
Share/Save/Bookmark
Advertisement
I've finally found a design I like for building my own fire meteor, but I am trying to decide on the diameter of the rope. Right now I have 2 practice meteors: one with 3/8" rope and the other with a thin 1/4" rope. I actually like the thinner one better, but Im not sure how that transfers over to fire meteor. So what size rope does everyone use here?

Im asking because Matthew from Flamma Aeterna advised getting the much thicker size ropes because they would be easier to grab. Im not that uncomfortable with the idea of thin rope, but I prefer to research it a little more first.


btw, the design is a Kevlar tether with a cable/rope thimble on the ends (see link: www.hardwareandtools.com/invt/6722110), then 1 foot of twisted oval link chain attached to Flamma Aeterna's EggPoi (see link: www.flammaaeterna.com/p-944-e...ds.aspx)
posted by:
squid
Atlanta
Advertisement
Advertisement
  • Re: How thick is your rope?

    Wed, November 12, 2008 - 9:56 AM
    My rope is 1/2" thick with less than 6" of ball chain at each end with weighted fire wicks at the ends, roughly 6' in total length. I recommend you minimize the amount of chain you have in your meteor, as it will result in an undesirable weight distribution. Meteors are NOT all created equal, meteors that are heavier at the ends and lighter in the middle will be easier to do staff work with.
    • Re: How thick is your rope?

      Wed, November 12, 2008 - 11:52 AM
      Yep, that "light in the middle" is why I was considering the 1/4" rope. Its also why I was opting for the heavy EggPoi too. I like the idea of less chain though. Im glad to hear that you are able to use 6" of chain with no issues arising. That makes a slight change in how much kevlar vs. chain I will need.
      • Re: How thick is your rope?

        Wed, November 12, 2008 - 12:42 PM
        I'm a little nervous about people using 1/4" kevlar rope; it seems so thin for the stress it would endure. The higher diameter we were suggesting is for beginners. In our own meet-ups, staff converts were finding it easier with larger rope, but they weren't doing any special tricks, just learning. I personally have never used anything under 1/2" (possibly 3/8" out at Wildfire, trying someone else's setup).

        I also agree on keeping the chain short or make it heavier.

        Matthew
        Flamma Aeterna
        • Re: How thick is your rope?

          Wed, November 12, 2008 - 4:45 PM
          I understand your nervousness. That's part of why Im garnering advice. The difference between my practice meteor and a fire one is the heat stress that 1/4" rope could undergo. I might have to simply buy the materials and test build a prototype, because I have never heard of a fire meteor that meets the specs Im exploring.

          Let me ask a slightly different question then to you specifically, Matthew. How much heavier are the Egg Poi (dry) than normal Monkeyfists (dry)? If their weight is sufficient, then a thicker 3/8" rope wont suffer losing much tension.
          • Re: How thick is your rope?

            Wed, November 12, 2008 - 5:40 PM
            a little off subject. and i didn't read the posts... adhd yeah...

            anyways....

            are you thinking of making a meteor straight out of kevlar rope..... i've thought of it... because attaching rope or wicks to chains i feel would lessen the amount of control you would have.... but a straight rope..... that would be tight......

            half inch up would be huge wicks....... but then again big weight is a good thing yeah?

            my practice meteor is less than 1/4 inch and it works great.....

            prototype is the way to go..... watch money drop, but then you sell sweet props and make it back

            yipp
        • Re: How thick is your rope?

          Wed, November 12, 2008 - 7:34 PM
          I cannot recommend strongly enough to NOT use kevlar rope. I have some experience in this, and found that it wears VERY poorly. My recommendation is to use cotton bondage rope if you decide to go with 3/8ths inch, or nylon for 1/2" or 5/8". Nylon is cheep, easy on the hands, and any damage (fire related or not) is easily discernible. I have been using the same nylon rope for roughly a year (practicing ~3 hrs a week, plus burns) and the rope is still in good shape, aside for a small crunchy spot from when I dropped it during a burn.

          I used a kevlar rope for a bit. It wore out in under two months, and was exceedingly rough before I decided to retire it for safety reasons.
          • Re: How thick is your rope?

            Thu, November 13, 2008 - 11:26 AM
            So what do you use. a rope with chains attached and then the wick?
            • Re: How thick is your rope?

              Thu, November 13, 2008 - 12:29 PM
              As I posted above, I use nylon rope, 1/2" thickness, with roughly 6" ball chain at either end, attached to weighted fire wicks. The whole shebang is roughly 6' long. I'd guess my heads are 1/2 lb each, but I have never weighed them.
          • Re: How thick is your rope?

            Thu, November 13, 2008 - 6:35 PM
            That's interesting. I've always thought of Kevlar as being a very durable material, not to mention having seen it used on other models like Home of Poi.

            Im comfortable using cotton, but not Nylon. Im not disrespecting your decision, but for me the risks simply negate any benefits, when using fire.

            Im reading between the lines here, but I am inferring that, with cotton, you would not recommend going thinner than 3/8th. Is cotton bondage rope a commonly found hardware material or something more eclectic?
            • Re: How thick is your rope?

              Fri, November 14, 2008 - 11:36 AM
              Kevlar is a specalized material. While extremely strong against some heat, it disentegrates(burns) at heats over 1100 centigrade or so, While extremely strong on the long axis, it has almost no resistance to abrasion. Kevlar is only strong so long as you keep it within its parameters. If you want more proof, look into the people who have been stabbed while wearing bulletproof vests: the attackers generally say that the knife goes through the vest as though it were cotton.

              kevlar rope meteors are quite weak, because of the point where the rope goes into the wic head. The extra heat and torquing weaken the attachment point, and the meteor head will break off the rope, unless you reinforce the core, with oh, say, a steel cable.

              Also, Kevlar is hell on hands, it's why nomex was invented. You rotate the connection points by 90 degrees on the aramid compounds, and you get meta-aramid, which is much better against skin, but has many similar properties.

              And no, you can't get bondage rope at hardwear stores, unless you go to a very special hardware store. (heh heh... hard... heh... ware... heh heh)
              • Re: How thick is your rope?

                Fri, November 14, 2008 - 1:55 PM
                Well I am glad I decided to discuss the topic with you folks before hand. It certainly doesn't sound like Kevlar is what I want. Especially not at the size I was interested in.


                Right now, Im looking at Dube, which has www.dube.com/rope/bythefoot.php. Its a trick rope. The thickness is .375 inches, or 3/8th. It is 100% cotton with a cotton core, braided specifically for rope spinning tricks. Sounds easy on the hands and a tight weave. At $0.99 per foot, its cheaper than bondage rope too.

                If you look at Dube's finished product trick ropes, my tether idea is exactly like that but shorter.

                Thoughts and opinions of this?
                • Re: How thick is your rope?

                  Tue, November 18, 2008 - 1:02 PM
                  I vote with Logan and suggest sticking with all braided. Mine is actually a 5/8" black all-braided nylon from Home depot. If you use the rope sleeves you were talking about, then I definitely think you should use all-braided. See my post back at our forums when Tribe was down today:

                  flammaaeterna.ning.com/forum/...-meteor

                  that post mentions also sewing the rope together where the rope comes together at the base of the rope thimble, where the rope sleeve would go.

                  Cotton would probably be more consistent with most peoples' views on the use of nylon with fire toys. Unless you are tight on cash, I would say get the rope that is going to work the best, and don't worry so much about the per-foot price. As I mentioned, though, I don't have experience with ropes under 3/8 inch.

                  Matthew
                  Flamma Aeterna
                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: How thick is your rope?

                    Tue, November 18, 2008 - 1:05 PM
                    Another thought on your rope thimble idea, are you going to get a large carabiner or quicklink to attach your chain? the poi quicklinks out there do not normally have more than a 3/16" opening. If you go with a larger rope, I would suggest the tube idea, such as we've discussed earlier, with the PSA wick material covering the metal.

                    Matthew
                    Flamma Aeterna
                    • Re: How thick is your rope?

                      Tue, November 18, 2008 - 6:57 PM
                      Yeah, quicklinks. If I use a diameter rope too thick for quicklinks, I will permanently attach a ring or large chain link to the loop fixture so that the quicklink can be used.
                • Re: How thick is your rope?

                  Wed, November 19, 2008 - 12:20 AM

                  What Dube sells is Samson spot cord. Great for trick roping and spinning, but not necessarily for meteors. It's a heavily starched (stiff) cotton rope that becomes progressively more flexible as it's used.

                  Better is braided nylon rope, 3/8" to 5/8". This is a bit hard to find in colors these days as the primary manufacturer of Derby rope has gone out of business. You can find lots of white, but little colored braided nylon cord in many stores: GI Joes, Home Depot, True Value, etc.

                  If you do lots of wraps (and lots of tangles) you should plan on replacing nylon cord every ten to thirty+ burns, depending on how often you get the cord in contact with the wick.

                  If instead, you want to protect the nylon nearest the flame, you can either lengthen the chain/cable that comes out of your wick, or cover some of the nylon cable with Kevlar or Nomex tubing. This is a special order from most vendors, but ask your favorite (Flamea, Bearclaw, Foreworks [me]). We'll need to know what size rope your plan to use, as well as how much tubing you'll want. Much simpler just to replace the rope when needed.


                  • This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.

                    Re: How thick is your rope?

                    Thu, November 20, 2008 - 3:30 PM
                    Ooh, thanks for the info, Eric. I had not considered tubing protection, and I definitely didn't know that the trick rope was starched. That would irritate the hands a lot.

                    So, can I ask your opinion, as a fire toy manufacturer, of the original idea for using thin Kevlar? Is that a material you have tried, or one you also would avoid? Im asking because I cannot get it out of my head that synthetic fibers like Nylon have always been a no-no. If Sampson spot cord isn't ideal, why not use a softer braided cotton like the bondage rope suggested earlier?

                    I know, its like trying to talk to a deaf bulldog. Sometimes I can't get it through my thick head. :)
                    • Re: How thick is your rope?

                      Fri, November 21, 2008 - 6:09 PM
                      Woven Kevlar is great for wick, but has little strength as a rope. In fact, the manufacturers assume that kevlar "rope" is going to be used as a seal in stove, fireplace, and furnace doors, and that no linear stress at all will be put on it.

                      As noted earlier here by someone else, kevlar rope, thick or thin, breaks where it's bent or flexed most often. In a Meteor, that would be where the center cord meets the monkeyfist knot.

                      You want a center cord that's easy on the hands (another reason not to use kevlar there). Braided nylon is great: it won't rot or fade, and has incredible strength. But nylon will melt and eventually burn from exposure to fire, so you have to protect it somehow.

                      One way to do so is to separate the nyon center cord from the monkeyfist (or turkshead or whatever) by a length of steel or brass chain. Heavy ball chain is probably best, but stainless aircraft cable would work, too. Use what's handy and whatever material you have the tools for.

                      FWIW, Another means of connecting the torch heads and the center rope might be the spiral metal ends of bungee cords -- not the hooky parts which would have to be clipped off (or bent into a smooth circle), just the spiral bit.

                      If you do lots of wraps and moves where the fire contacts the center rope, you'll need to cover some of the nylon cord with Nomex or Kevlar tubing. The idea here is to protect the nylon from direct contact with fire. Be careful not to get fuel on the center part or tubing, or you'll have no place to hold the damn thing.

                      Samson spot cord is just cotton rope. Burns and chars like any other cotton. The starch is usually washed out or allowed to wear out through use, unless you prefer riata-style Mexican roping, which uses very stiff, braided leather rope preferred by vaqueros. Most Norte cowboys prefer softer, washed rope. These are cowboy issues, though, and don't really matter for fire play.
  • Re: How thick is your rope?

    Thu, December 11, 2008 - 2:08 AM
    How come no one mentioned a treated hemp rope? 8mm would be a nice thickness. Boil/stretch/treat it, (like the bondage folks do) burn the excess hemp fibers off and voila! you have fairly sot rope, with the teensiest bit of tooth, lots of strength, no melting issues, and not quite as flammable as cotton.
  • Re: How thick is your rope?

    Sat, February 28, 2009 - 9:33 AM
    So I know this is a bit necrotic, bringin up dead subjects, but during a random browse, I came upon a manufacturer who makes a variety of Nomex, Kevlar, and other fire-resistant cloths. mid-mountain.com/index.cfm

    the polyflouro line has a rope which looks like it might work well. It would depend on some testing, I realize, but I thought I'd share.

    btw: I finally settled on an 8mm hemp bondage rope from a site called Twisted Monk.www.twistedmonk.com/products.htm
    It is perfect for my own preferences, though I know its probably a bit thin for most. They do carry a 10mm rope (about 3/8"), as well.

    www.rawganique.com/HArope.htm
    If you want thicker hemp ropes, I found this helpful
    • Re: How thick is your rope?

      Wed, March 4, 2009 - 8:22 PM
      so you ended up constructing your meteor? can you take pictures of the finished product? i'm curious as to how you ended up deciding to attach cable to rope. . .wanna post some pictures?

      i'm in the process of creating my meteor currently; just made a post over at firemecca where you posted before about meteors.

Recent topics in "Fire Meteor"

Topic Author Replies Last Post
A place for meteor on Facebook Chris 1 November 8, 2009
A discussion of Weaves Chris 17 October 27, 2009
New tribe for Montana Fire Artists leah 0 October 8, 2009
Meteor Knot Video Chris 2 August 12, 2009